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How will a Human Rights Act help ordinary people?

by Anna Saulwick
 

Finally, thanks to ongoing pressure from people like you, the Government has today opened up the conversation on human rights. The announcement of a national consultation on human rights in Australia is the beginning of one of the most important democratic processes that we will ever witness, and the launch GetUp’s most important human rights campaign yet.

The move toward a national law protecting human rights has the potential to vastly improve human rights protection in Australia. We don’t need to look hard to find human rights abuses in this country: children have been held in detention centres, asylum seekers have been detained for indefinite periods, terrorism laws have stripped back fundamental freedoms and indigenous people have been left without adequate housing, health and education services.

But most human rights violations never hit the headlines. The people that fall through the cracks are vulnerable ordinary people.  Read on to see how human rights legislation has made a difference to people in Victoria and in the UK.

A sample of the kinds of cases that are being addressed under the Victorian Charter:

A woman suffered a brain injury that caused severe and very painful contractures in her left hand. Unless treated, the woman will probably have to have her hand amputated. Though she has been waiting for three years, she is not considered a priority for treatment because she is over 50 years of age. The Charter is being used to argue that the woman should have prompt access to treatment on the basis of a right to non-discrimination and other rights under the Victorian Charter.

A pregnant single mother with two children was living in community housing. She was given an eviction notice, which didn\'t provide any reasons for the eviction, or allow her to address the landlord’s concerns. The Victorian Charter was used to negotiate with her landlord to prevent an eviction into homelessness, and reach an alternative agreement.

The human rights of a young boy with intellectual difficulties are being emphasised to ensure that his transport to and from school enables him to concentrate and participate in classes. His transport takes over three hours; he is not provided with any stimulation during the journey and cannot communicate with his chaperones, as they are not trained in working with children with intellectual difficulties.

A prisoner who could not afford the high transport costs to attend his civil court hearing used the Charter to argue that his right to a fair hearing was at risk, and the costs were waived.

Click here to lock in Australian values and stop people falling through the cracks: www.getup.org.au/campaign/YourRights

A sample of the kinds of cases being addressed under the UK Human Rights Act:

A man detained in a mental health hospital repeatedly soiled himself, and staff refused to clean him up or take him to another room, claiming that he would simply make a mess again. He argued that this treatment breached his right not to be treated in an inhuman or degrading way, and his right to respect for private life, and the hospital changed their practice.

A husband and wife had been married for 65 years. He was unable to walk unassisted, and relied upon his wife for mobility. She was blind, and relied upon her husband as her eyes. The husband fell ill and was moved into a residential care facility. The wife requested to move with him, but was denied because she did not meet the entry criteria of the facility. She successfully argued for her admission on the basis of the right to family life.

Click here to take the next step in our democracy: www.getup.org.au/campaign/YourRights


Giorgia Rossi

Posted by Giorgia Rossi 12/10/2008

Today, on the 60th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Australians have been presented with the opportunity to participate in meaningful debate about an issue which affects all Australians, in all areas of their lives, at all times. Hopefully, come July next year, thousands of Australians will be able to look back at this consultation period and be proud of their contribution to one of the most important dialogues we may ever have as a nation.

The debate opposing and supporting a Bill of Rights has been long and it has been hot. However as Father Brennan has stressed, this debate is not just one examining the details and implementation of a Bill of Rights. Australians are invited to consider whether our legal system as it stand absolutely and adequately protects human rights (social, cultural, political, economic, environmental?) or whether further protections are necessary to ensure our fundamental rights remain at large from the risk of violation.

Australians have human rights at the core of our culture and what it is to be an 'Australian'. Our values and our strong sense of morality are central to our ideals about society and the way in which we conduct our relationships with others in terms of rights and responsibilities. Whilst we live in a country that on the whole affords protections to basic rights, too often are we disappointed when we see people slipping through the cracks-inviting us to consider whether these rights we celebrate and take for granted are not as inalienable as we once might have hoped.


Hopefully this consultation process will arrive at a means to record those values central to Australian society, those which we have signed up to in our unratified UN treaties and those which everyone, universally is entitled to expect.

Let's take hold of this opportunity to become a world leader in Human Rights protections instead of a democracy lagging in its obligations. Let's discuss this across as many forums as possible, invite participation by as many areas of society as possible. Let's join together to encourage a comprehensive, progressive system which improves policy and decision making and represents a compact between society and government- the result of meaningful and wide-ranging discussion.

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enufisenuf

Posted by enufisenuf 12/11/2008

Your comment

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David McKenzie

Posted by David McKenzie 12/10/2008

The right wingers and conservative types are all over this like rabid dogs. As though the human rights advocates, who welcome this consultation, were interested in nothing more than legal fees and power. How ridiculous.

Perhaps there is another motive: a better democratic process for making laws, and a system of rights that takes care of everyone.

I only hope that the aggressive rhetoric of these commentators, and the alarmist misinformation they peddle, fades into insignificance as we get on with talking about what rights we should have in this country, and how best to protect them.

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JP

Posted by JP 12/10/2008

Talk, I fear, is all that it will come to...sadly. In effect the government will never fetter its ability to govern for 'the greater good' (whatever they think that means) at the expense of individual rights. If anything, our 'democratic system' of electing our representatives is in practice likely to guarantee this. All Human Rights Acts/Charters throughout the world have carve outs to ensure that there is scope to balance the greater good against the individual right.

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Colin

Posted by Colin 12/10/2008

Does it come with a Charter of Human responsibilities? or is it all about Me, Me, Me

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Anonymous guy

Posted by Anonymous guy 12/15/2008

http://www.philia.ca/cms_en/page1287.cfm

This
may be something that you are interested in, and could pass on to the person who you send that form email too.


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enufisenuf

Posted by enufisenuf 12/11/2008

It is all about Me, Me, Me...(Me being the solicitors, lawyers, judges, public servants, etc that wish to keep leaching the system)

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Darryn

Posted by Darryn 12/11/2008

The rights apply to everyone without exception, therefore if I have the right to be free from torture then you have the right to be free from torture therefore I have the responsibility to not torture you. The responsibilities are inherent in the rights. It's not all about Me, Me, Me. It's equally about everyone.

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John

Posted by John 12/10/2008

Our Human rights are already protected and can always be enhanced more, through changes to our laws by our democratically elected representatives.

A formalised bill would by-pass democracy and give power to unelected judges.

America has a Bill of rights. It gives them all the right to bear arms and shoot each other and Governments elected by present day citizens are powerless to change it.

We already have rights covered by our laws, any attempt to formalise them would leave a rigid structure that could be dangerous and unchangeable for future generations.

Human Rights are protected by good Government. If we were to decline into a dictatorship like Zimbabwe has or Uganda was then no pious statement in the constitution is likely to protect the citizens, yet it would cause endless other problems in the meantime.

If you ask any Australian, do they think that their rights as Humans should be protected, of course they will say yes. But it does not automatically follow that the way to do this is to have a Bill of Rights. This campaign confuses the two.

I often agree with and support Get-Up campaigns, but I think this one is an emotive, simplistic response to a problem that does not exist.

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Kurt

Posted by Kurt 1/28/2009

John,
As an American, our Bill of Rights has nothing to do with guns. Our Contstitution's 2nd Amendment right gives us "The right to bear arms". This right does NOT permit us to shoot each other, but does allow us to defend ourselves, another person in danger, and the right to protect whatis ours, within the laws. As a collector of 46 different firearms, I can say not one of my weapons has ever brought physical harm to another individual while in my possession. Sure, I've aimed a gun or two at another human, but only as a matter of last resort. I've also been well within "MY RIGHTS", according our laws each time I had to go to this extreme Lastly, our Gov't. officials are elected by the citizenry, therefore the elected offcials work for the citizenry. If it were the other way around, it would not be a democracy.

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adam

Posted by adam 12/10/2008

If you were a member of a minority groups like international refugees, Australian aboriginals or the thousands of homeless in this country you would think this was a problem that doesn't exist. Blind faith in the goodness of governance is the privilege of the privileged. Your argument boils down to 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. It may not be broke from where you are standing, but millions of Australians suffer degradation and exploitation on a daily basis.

The American bill of rights does not give them the right to shoot each other. If Uganda had a bill of rights it probably would not be where it is. A formalised bill would not bypass democracy, because it would only happen via democratic process and it would form a foundational structure on which all democratic process would have to rest.

To become a judge in this country one has to have navigated through some pretty stringent educational and vocational waters, and then be appointed by elected representatives of the people. I wish politicians had to be as well prepared for their role or as accountable as judges do, any idiot can get elected.

Your arguments are narrow, ill informed, plain old incorrect and built on weak philosophical premises. This is the laziness and indifference of someone who has never had to struggle for what he needs or defend what he has against governments who serve vested interests at the expense of the population. Human rights don't protect themselves.

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Anonymous Coward

Posted by Anonymous Coward 12/10/2008

While I must say that I agree with the Act being without question entirely necessary, but I cant agree with you in regards to the standard of our judges considering one of ours felt that Cartoons are people too.



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hornet

Posted by hornet 12/11/2008

I would have thought the dubious standard of the legal fraternity was one of the strongest arguments against such an Act. Take that pompous scion of the human rights establishment and now self-confessed perjuror and liar, Marcus Einfeld, who knew better than any of us what human rights were. And the dozing judges and tax-evading barristers. Spare us. At least we can get rid of politicians.

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Rulz

Posted by Rulz 12/10/2008

60th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - 60 years of ethnic cleansing and blatant human rights violations in occupied Palestine, with lacking international support and outrage.

A sad, sad day indeed.

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Indo girl

Posted by Indo girl 12/10/2008

It is appalling that Australia does not have a Human Rights Actin place and it is worth pushing for. It is interesting to see what applies to what is a "right". In some cases what is claimed as a right is more like a privilege. If the provision of that right deprives several others of a similar right - is it just? In a country with one of the largest welfare bills and consequently one of the highest taxed nations on the planet is the plight of one individual more valuable a consideration than another? How do you measure that?

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Bill Caruthers

Posted by Bill Caruthers 12/10/2008

The US government creates and maintain places like Guantanamo Bay and allegedly abducts foreign nationals to be tortured, sorry questioned, in other countries under a rendition program.
It seems to ignore accepted international conventions of law such as habeus corpus and maintains publicly that it is leader of the democratic world.
The Australian government seemed happy to leave a citizen in Guantanomo Bay for years as tangible political support for a long time ally because we are at war on terror.
Australia governments seem to pick and choose laws and treaties to ignore or trumpet depending on which way the political wind is blowing knowing that countries on 'our side' never really do anything.
How would or could a Human Rights Act make Australia accountable in any practical way?
If someone can answer that I will consider supporting the cause.

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Annonymous Coward

Posted by Annonymous Coward 12/11/2008

"How would or could a Human Rights Act make Australia accountable in any practical way?"

If it had within it such things that would make those mentioned protected then it would give a position from which at the very least to negotiate with The powers that be.

Of course if someone wants to illegally bag and tag you, what are you going to do to stop them without say the right to bare arms to defend yourself, but it would be nice to think we haven't slipped into a authoritarian situation while we were busy cuddled up with our tim-tams and nescafe' nestled up by the fire reading to our kiddlywinks about how great it was to get defeated in gallipoli and how shallow our victories were in the later stages of the war, while hoping against hope that the nasty terror-tree-men would go away as we give our government another spoonful of our privacy . Unfortunately we got scared, or at least alot of us did, and so we did things, and agreed to things that we really shouldn't have, and are ashamed of, and your right, a bill of rights is only a piece of paper, that says "these rights we uphold to be protected blahblahblah" that we can wave in their faces and say;

"there see you shouldn't have been doing that, thats some bad voodoo joojoo letting Australian citizens be extradited for Copyright Infringement so they can be abused by the American justice system and then by their prison system", a punishment most Australians I would hope would find to be both cruel and unusual, "instead of letting them willingly submit to our own finely serviceable justice system, and prison system that is also some no good witches brew"

Seriously though its one thing to have a bill of rights, but you need to enforce it to make a reality, IANAA but at the very least it may give another arrow in the quiver for someone who is maliciously targeted, and will be, like with the government saying sorry, a positive public affirmation of the direction and future of the country.

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GeoffP

Posted by GeoffP 12/10/2008

It is all good for individuals like you till the truth about the world comes home to roost. Normal law abiding people don't play with rocket launchers.

Wake up....... The world is not full of nice people who share you values for what is "right".

Some people just want to see you extinct. A bill of rights for people who share the same values is all good. But not worth the paper it will perhaps be written on for groups or individuals that could not give a rats left nipple for your beliefs and values.

Wake Up.

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Anonymous Coward

Posted by Anonymous Coward 12/11/2008

"Some people just want to see you extinct. A bill of rights for people who share the same values is all good. But not worth the paper it will perhaps be written on for groups or individuals that could not give a rats left nipple for your beliefs and values."

So because of this we should go back to scorched earth? Ive got nothing against invading the rest of the world, but in all honestly no western society really seems to have the stomach for genocide anymore, which makes war somewhat pointless, but you are correct simply enunciating a set of rights and freedoms to be protected doesn't mean that its an automatic shield bubble, obviously just like with the common law, if you ignore the infringements on your rights, then thats your fault, if the system ignores your rights then you you campaign to have them recognized.

Of course as you so helpfully point out Normal people don't play with rocket launchers, nor plan insurrections, revolutions or genocides, just as it would be fair to say, normal people or the majority of people in Australia [and this needs to be kept in mind, as much as they can be compared to the US form they will be uniquely Australian, protecting Australians and being enforced by Australians, not some small minority of nutjobs with AK's RPG's and and a fascination with anachronisms.

"Wake Up."

I urge you to do the same and stop sniffing on the baseless fumes of a very oily and slippery slope. To simply say, "we should have no rights because some people wont respect them or they may be unequally implemented and enforced" [which i'm assuming is your thrust] is absurd considering this is more to do with "Our [the Australian Public's] List of rights which are EXPLICITLY PROTECTED FROM GOVERNMENT, which would therefore give an Australian citizen protection from its government and judiciary system, and impart upon the government responsibilities in regards to the treatment of Australians, whether at home or abroad [one would hope].

On the other hand we can stay with the system we have were we see Australians extradited over copyright INFRINGEMENT or a government that washes its hands of us if we do make the wrong choices and end up getting illegally detained by an ally in a 3rd parties country with the collusion of our own security forces.

Now sure you can say that thats all just a piece of paper, and that if when some guy breaks into your home they aren't going to tell you that they are about to abuse your civil liberties or human rights, they are just going to beat you senseless and run, thats when things like the right to bare arms, and the right to defend oneself with non-lethal force comes in handy, giving you more of the ability to whip out your weapon of choice and chastise said intruder which do not directly kill them but hopefully send them running in such a way as for them to be at Bathurst before they look back to see the Police and Ambulance that you sent after them.

If you are personally unwilling to protect you rights then in essence your right you have none[and you probably deserve none either, but this is a rather specious argument, because while in business it may seem dog eat dog, the majority of Australians wholehearted embrace democracy which means that bits of paper [like a bill of rights, or common law for that matter] do bring down the heavies [the cops or the armed forces] and therefore allow us, as long as the government grants it to us, freedom, and relative peace.

This bill would take out of governments hands the ability to deduct from these rights and freedoms in the future, take free speech, who honestly believes that we will be allowed to keep that if the government of the day feels it can get away with it, or can create a situation within the media that pushes for heightened surveillance? The Howard era if nothing else should hopefully have taught Australians that while its all well and good to have faith in our government, they are their to serve us, not the other way around, and therefore we should have a list of protected rights, which are difficult for the government or judiciary of the time to deprive you of.

While a secondary action of the bill would defend you from other people, it would [AFAIK] be something that protects your from your government, and seeing that I would be hard pressed imagining K.Rudd toting an RPG [though Big Red I could easily picture running rambo style] I would imagine the most effective weapon to use against such people, would be a piece of paper, which has been ratified through a referendum and was embedded within our constitution. One that gives you the right to self defense and to bare arms would give you a nice backup though for when the revolution comes and you have all those nasty people trying to shoot you with rocket launchers because they just did not like what you said about their mumma.

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Aliz

Posted by Aliz 12/10/2008

It would help if the formulation of lists of rights were standardised - there are repetitions, phrases are repeated, some formulations do not follow from the introductory phrase. Do we mean "The right to the right to education"? "The right to striking from work"?
I have the impression that the material offered has not been carefully prepared, and this makes me hesitate about adding my support to the venture.

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Trigul

Posted by Trigul 12/10/2008

I am concerned that without a guiding principal the Human Rights could campaign could result in "taking in the baby with the bath water". By that I mean that some of the Rights may turn out to have unfortunate side effects. Since the demise of religious belief and trust in our most gifted academics as the touchstones we seem to have no guiding principles other than the "feelings" a proposal invokes. For example, the case concerning the Mental Hospital inmate who soiled himself. The rights of the staff who were given the dehumanising task of cleaning the inmate do no seem to have been considered. Nor has the long term effect of some of the other sample cases.
Like it or not there is, and always will be, a tension between the rights of individuals and the community. To think otherwise is breaching the responsiblity we all have to keep our community stable for without a functioning community all of our individual rights will be lost.
So I would be much happier with a charter that balanced the Community's Resonsibilities to the Individual with the Individual's Responsibilities to the Community. I am not ready to sign the petition.

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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 12/10/2008

A law can neither protect you or your freedoms unless it is enforced.

A favourite trick of Australian administration at Federal, State, and Local level is to point to legislation or regulation that purports to protect a person or a Human Right, and then either not install the machinery required to enforce it, or alternatively at Government and Public Service level, to refuse to enforce the legislation anyway, even where such machinery and procedure does exist and where there are identifiable persons responsible for the necessary enforcement.

The victim of such refusal to act has in most cases almost no means of redress. Anti corruption agencies such as the NSW Independent Commission Against Corruption virtually refuse to take any action unless the perpetrator of an administrative injustice is filmed receiving a bucket of cash from an offender. If you want to know how some rogue developments get through, both commercial and domestic, that is how it is done - and some of the anticorruption agencies would seem through failing to act to be part of the problem, right up to their scrawny necks.

Failure to act to enforce existing regulation has been the major source of corruption in town planning and many other matters. God knows just how much money is being extorted by Compliance departments in a variety of institutions at all levels as reward for deliberately failing to act in accordance with their responsibilities. We are probably talking millions upon millions here together with a great deal of misery inflicted on innocent citizens

Whilst a writ of mandamus is a possible action that can be taken to force and administrative body to enforce a law such action is extremely expensive and technically complex

A writ of mandamus can be defined in this manner: "A writ which may be issued to any inferior tribunal, corporation, board or person to compel the performance of an act which the law specially enjoins or a duty resulting from an office trust or station."

A Human Rights Act or Bill of Rights should contain within it the right of any person to seek action in accordance with the presumption that a writ of mandamus might validly be obtained in a specific matter. Such application and action should be free of all cost to the applicant.

Such a Human Rights provision would weed out a mountain of corruption and deliberate and malicious denial of natural justice in favour of the interests of friends, bribers, cartel, and cliques.

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Darren

Posted by Darren 12/10/2008

I tend to agree that a bill of rights or similar legislation is not needed. Though consultation on human rights is great.

Australia has formal recognition of rights — it's called the common law.


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honest john

Posted by honest john 12/10/2008

would a bill of rights include indigenous australians & refugees i ask

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Anonymous Coward

Posted by Anonymous Coward 12/11/2008

One can only hope, and like many people, petition and make a strong case for it, and while this may be somewhat controversial while indigenous Australians rights may need a place in such a document, I would hope that the body of it would be something beyond race, religion or political persuasion, something that can hopefully guide us in the direction that we wish to take as a society and heal the divides present within our society. I'd say something like the freedom of culture etc would hopefully mean that such shameful things like the stolen generation never happen again.

Also one would hope that a bill of rights would not just be designed in regards as to how our government treats us as citizens but also how it treats non-citizens as human beings while they are within 'our spheres of influence' is it?

Still i'm just some guy with such a shallow background in both our legal system and constitution that its all mere opinion.

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chalkie

Posted by chalkie 2/6/2009

"freedom of culture" - wow, sharia in an instant! I can hardly think of a better argument against A BoR than this!

Of course, you hit a central issue for many critics of a Bill of Rights: that it would simply be a vehicle for indigenous Australians to exploit to gain resources as part of a distinct group rather than simply on the basis of need, while at the same time enjoying native title and other unique property title and entitlement.

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Lyle Collins

Posted by Lyle Collins 12/10/2008

I have a few concerns about this bill, in that what constitutes human rights needs to be constantly redifined, and by enshrining them in a 'bulletproof' document, it inhibits this process. Here is a few examples illustrating my concerns:

Included in the US Bill of Rights is the right to free speech. Such a statement enabled to Ku Klux Klan to operate rascist rallies.

Americans have the constitutional right to bear arms. As such the gun-related deaths compared to a country such as ours is staggering.

Despite America having a Bill of Rights, Guatanamo Bay was able to operate for 6 years and its only becoming longer (though Obama does have plans to shut it down).

What if one person's idea to freedom of religion includes includes cutting out women's genitalia, polygamy or teaching creationism in high school science classes?

And finally, I am concerned that this will induce lethargic behaviour in the area of human rights - humans that have to fight for their rights will be the last to give them up once they have them.

If someone could please reply to my concerns and tell me why they are unrealistic, this campaign would have my support.

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Sharon

Posted by Sharon 12/10/2008

I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don't know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.

Sharon

http://www.autoloans101.info

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Anonymous Coward

Posted by Anonymous Coward 12/11/2008

"I have a few concerns about this bill, in that what constitutes human rights needs to be constantly redifined, and by enshrining them in a 'bulletproof' document"

Have it split into two sections, [for the purpose of this ill call themthe core section and the auxiliary section] the core section would deal with the ones that really shouldn't be changed for a good democracy [equality, religion, thought, speech, association] they would require alot of effort and such to amend/repeal, whereas the auxiliary section would deal with rights of a no less important nature,[such as the right to bare arms, property, Protection in the event of removal, expulsion or extradition, as well as a swag of other things] but potentially a more transitory one, because of basically events unseen and unforeseeable, the Auxiliary section would automatically come under review every set period of time [20-50 years].

IANAA but I would imagine it would be in the constitution and would be difficult to change in general, maybe having to go through parliament then get sent to referendum, have it so the auxiliary section would be re-voted on, while the core section needs the typical rigmarole and hours of filibustering that we typically see in relation to a constitutional change. It will never be easy to change or repeal but you would hope it could be made easier for parts of it to be changed if you wanted to.

"Included in the US Bill of Rights is the right to free speech. Such a statement enabled to Ku Klux Klan to operate rascist rallies."

Thats just silly, Free Speech and its protection is vital in a democracy, the last thing anyone should do is give any governing power the perception that censorship [or the removal of free speech] is acceptable, there are some whackjobs on the fringe in all things, but to give up such an essential liberty as free speech simply so that we can remove the whackyjob christian preacher from the streets who annoys us on town halls steps the bus and everywhere else one seems to go, or protect our good christian souls from that dirty S&M brown bag fun, or even to permaban from our interfeeds such annoying and pernicious sites as this one. To use the KKK as they are such a repugnant group though seems a tad poor form, but a fair point, the downside of you having the ability to say what you want [slander?] is that they can do it to, but that is far preferable to no one being able to say what they want.

"Despite America having a Bill of Rights, Guatanamo Bay was able to operate for 6 years and its only becoming longer (though Obama does have plans to shut it down)."

GitHQ somehow got GitMo through because of various loopholes I would imagine, also its possibly fair to think that those loopholes [non us citizens, patriot act, non US soil] may in some way be plugged up [though of course probably not], also its fair to say that someone will in some way work out a way to string the people who were behind it at some point when its politically viable, and less likely to end messily, still its a fireworks display that I'm personally looking forward to seeing if it ever happens.

On the other side of the coin though you have womens and blacks suffrage and rights, which we are always led to believe is an on going struggle which it is, as well as gay rights, and a mound of others.

No Act of the people or the parliament will be perfect, to simply sit on our hands because freedom for all does in fact mean freedom for all, would simply be irresponsible. Also the American public chose to re-elect GitBo whose policy GitMo was, why that happened is a different story, that is not so related to the bill of rights idea.

"What if one person's idea to freedom of religion includes includes cutting out women's genitalia, polygamy or teaching creationism in high school science classes?"

Yes creationism in classrooms I must say is the one big thing holding me back here... considering that creationism is from a religion, and religion has its place in schools, one would directly assume that if creationism is taught in a scripture class which is voluntary [like most public high schools have] this wouldn't be an issue. Also I'd imagine that the "Right to teach the Christian form of creationism in science classes as something more than a story" is not likely to roll well with an Australian public, and if it does unfortunately maybe its one of those give and takes, we get to tell everyone [including our children] that its good story but mostly plagiarized from earlier better stories which were just crude attempts to understand something that is fundamentally very difficult to understand if not impossible, and they get to pretend to their children that they are more than just members of a cult of personality 2000 years after the person died, the majority of Christians in Australia who aren't of the hardcore happy clapper type will probably chuckle along merrily to themselves because they have already reconciled religion and science a fair while ago.

Polygamy really is neither here nor there seeing that no one is hurt or in any form of physical pain from it [of course that is unless they like the back seat of the car] and if one woman can juggle two men at once in a stable relationship, well, more power to her and frankly should be no more offensive than homosexual or intergenerational relations. If we don't outlaw good ole' Rupe' and wendy, or queer eye for the straight guy, then I cant see why we really should have polygamy to be illegal.

In regards to protecting womens genitals one would hope that rights such as [but not limited to] "Right to liberty and security of the person", "Protection from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment", "Asylum", "Adequate standard of living" and "Physical well-being and health", and adequate measures to both enforce and protect such rights would hopefully stop such a thing from happening, and if it did would in effect nullify the argument of right to religious expression, and freedom of belief.

"And finally, I am concerned that this will induce lethargic behaviour in the area of human rights - humans that have to fight for their rights will be the last to give them up once they have them"

Unfortunately one of those nasty side effects of democracy is the hoped lessening of the need to down keyboards and up pitchforks to protect the rights of citizens of said democracy, I was always under the assumption that thats why we like democracy because there are other ways to get things done than simply shoot the person who stands in your way. Considering that this is the fight to obtain those rights, indeed your last statement is correct.

Once I have my rights, those damn nazi, commi, totalitarian, authoritarian, theocratical, neo-conservative, pinko, tree hugging, creationist neo-ludite fundementalist hippies will have to claw them from my cold dead fingers. Of course they could always try and cut my hands off before i'm dead to get at my rights, but considering that the right to bare arms while controversial and hopefully transitory, will most likely make it into the final act[considering that you can own firearms already one would assume that you would need a permit of some sort not to mention pistol non-automatic or hunting/farming firearms, maybe even an expression that killing someone even in self defense would deny them their right to a fair trial by their peers for the crimes they may have committed considering that they would be innocent until proven guilty], hopefully I will at least be able to put up a good show before I become first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Finally thank you for all those pretty straw"men all in a row" now if its going to be that kinda party i'm going to go find the mash potato.

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Lyle Collins

Posted by Lyle Collins 12/12/2008

Your idea on how the bill of rights should be organised (core and auxiliary sections) seems interesting, and my support on it would be conditional on its contents (of course).

As to the labelling of my concerns about free speech as 'silly', perhaps you do not understand my concerns so I will further illustrate. My concern is that one person's free speech is another person's incitement to racial hatred. In short, I like the idea that we have racial vilification laws. When I relate this to the Ku Klux Klan, many of their rallies were allowed to proceed, despite being challenged in court, as they were allowed to operate the rallies on the basis of free speech. Yes the idea of free speech is that if he says 'x', she is allowed to say 'y' back, but the thing about minorities is that they don't always have their side of the story portrayed fairly. (Side note) Funnily enough, Getup agrees with me on this point. I say this because I see the line next to this reply box 'Abusive, rascist or expletive language won't be tolerated.' Bottom line - I agree that society shouldn't have to tolerate abusive, rascist, expletive or discriminatory language under the guise of free speech.

You say, no act of the people or parliament is perfect. I agree, which is precisely why I am currently against the bill of rights (I can be swung around by some convincing arguments and/or upon seeing the bill). By having a bulletproof document, you make it all that harder to redefine what human rights are. Humans change as do their ideas on what human rights are. Less than 40 years ago (if my memory serves me correctly) it was considered ok to take children from their mothers. Maybe in 40 years time we will be considered monsters for making the dog sleep outside - maybe to use a more relevant issues, our ideas on what human rights are may change when you take into account cloning, abortion and stem cell research.

As to what you say about women's genitalia, your solution is that some rights are considered 'more important' than others in the same document. What humans consider more important will change, thus a bill of rights makes it harder to enact this change. Homosexuality became legalised when we considered that an individuals right to sexual preference was more important than imposing religious ideology on the subject.

I look forward to your response (or anyone else's that would like to respond to this topic).

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Annymous or something

Posted by Annymous or something 12/12/2008

"As to the labelling of my concerns about free speech as 'silly'"

I was a tad harsh and I am sorry for that, I may have misread the tone of your post as the KKK and womens genitalia comments seemed bait'ie my mistake.

"upon seeing the bill"

Indeed if its bogus I wont be voting for it either, but that goes for all things involving politics, no matter how great it "could" be if on paper it is both substantially flawed, and very closed [eg free speech from your throat but not on the net]

"your solution is that some rights are considered 'more important' than others in the same document."

Its not so much that I think some are more important than others, but that when one right impinges upon other rights, you are abrogating your responsibility in another area, and it becomes imo more difficult to claim that the original right [or your right to call the original right] comes into question, though it would need a judge to decide, but these issues are very real, and I was discussing them with a more intelligent friend of mine, who suggested to me that the bill of rights should also correspond with the common law, so that:

You can speak your mind, as long as you are not defamatory or racist, you can practice whatever religion you like as long as you are not murdering mutilating or any of the other things that are typically prescribed by law.

In regards to gay rights, that may more have been a church and state separation issue, being there is no secular reason to stop homosexual relation, and in a sense homosexual relations should be part of a bill of rights [not right out there are the front say same sex is special mind you, but more like "bang who you want as long as they agree and we are all cool" kinda thing] but I don't think it was because of overlapping religious/free speech rights.

"Bottom line - I agree that society shouldn't have to tolerate abusive, rascist, expletive or discriminatory language under the guise of free speech."

This is a very dangerous line to take for future generation of Australians, if we are willing to accept that things change, we need to then also view this as, how would we feel in 50 years time, when we may be a minority view? Not to mention that the idea of what all of those entail has changed. Expletives and Abusive language is something which we SHOULD have to accept, in all honesty, I can understand that its not enjoyable to listen to, and that its certainly not enjoyable to have it directed at you, but if we say some words are bad, where do we stop, and considering that words are just words, they shouldn't be legislated against, now discriminatory and racist I am very uncertain of, its impossible really to both stop people and draw a line in the sand, especially because words get recycled from generation to generation, I am sure 70 years ago calling someone a bugger, would have been calls for fisticuffs, now its just mildy amusing if people even understand what the original [or previous at least] meaning was, similar with bastard, etc etc etc, now I have to say this is a very very hard topic, and lawyers would get paid alot of money most likely to argue these things through, because like many things in law there is no right or wrong answer, depending on where you stand, I grew up with various racial slurs in the playground [im rather white] so to me I mostly think of the things as just words, and feel that to legislate against them would only really stop the people who would not have used them in the first place to not use them, and anyone else would.

"Your idea on how the bill of rights should be organised (core and auxiliary sections) seems interesting, and my support on it would be conditional on its contents (of course)."

Thank you I kinda liked it as well, as its one of the only things I could think of that would both protect certain things as well as leave it in the hands of the public alone if certain other things get scrubbed or left there, removing the politicians who can be manipulated by the minority or by special interest groups who pay the bills.

Also certainly euthanasia should be a right, the right to end ones OWN life or to do with one body as one wishes, though I also feel the "right to pollute ones mind an body with your own choice of substance" is pretty fair as well [NO MORE PROHIBITION!]

At the end of the day though, what makes me want this is that in 5 years time or 30 years time, My free speech, my right to protest and associate, my right to personal privacy wont be removed because we are worried about terrorists or Kiddie porn.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

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Lyle Collins

Posted by Lyle Collins 12/12/2008

I forgot to add the example that our idea of what human rights are may change with euthanasia. Currently a majority of the population support the idea (according to the polls I see, I admit it may be incorrect, but you have to at least concede that maybe the majority view may change on the matter whatever it may be now), but it is not legal. Such a change will be much quicker going through parliament than trying to change a Bill of Rights.

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Annonymous Eureka!

Posted by Annonymous Eureka! 12/12/2008

Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

--

This was the concept I was looking for, from the:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

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Chris Harries

Posted by Chris Harries 12/11/2008

I think because the UN Declaration of Human Rights is a tad old there is no emphasis and no debate on the rights to a clean environment. This is now a major deficiency and ought to be incorporated into any modern Bill of Rights.

Having a guaranteed right to a range of rights ... free speech, free association, equality before the law, secret ballot.... will be to no avail on a dying planet.

Te original framing of a Bill of Rights tends to stick - like the US citizens' perverse 'rights to bear arms' – so we ought to get it right from the start.

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Former Yank

Posted by Former Yank 12/11/2008

The US has a formal Bill of Rights that are the first ten amendments to the Constitution. This can NOT be overturned by an act of Congress nor a presidential decree.
Meanwhile, it only took close to 100 years from the passage of the Bill of Rights before slavery ended.
Then there are Guantanamo Bay, “water boarding,” allegations of torture by the CIA, etc.
The so called Bill of Rights is meaningless when it is up to the governments whether it is applied or not.
I would rather see the efforts go into actions rather than words.

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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 12/11/2008

"Former Yank" makes an excellent point when he says that a Bill of Rights is meaningless when it is up to Governments whether it is applied or not - which is why I believe that the Right to demand legislation be enforced should be one of the Rights included within any Australian Bill.

The American Constitution is all too often confused with the "Declaration of Independence" - in fact the Constitution is an administrative document of surprisingly poor quality for the amount of work that went into it, and has resulted in a highly questionable Government structure when looked at through the filter of the question "What really constitutes democracy?" To my mind the response is "certainly not that rubbish"

The Bill of Rights, being in the form of "Amendments to the Constitution", however, is capable of protecting the citizen, and it is worth noting that the final abolition of slavery came through adding to those Constitutional Amendment. It is the Bill of Rights which largely rescues the Constitution it amends from contempt and obscurity

Americas mistake is to hive off the enforcement of those Rights to a "Supreme Court" whose long term nature is mostly decided by Administrations that are of far shorter duration than the terms of Supreme Court Justices. Thus an ultra conservative justice appointed today may still be there in a decade or more.

For a Bill of Rights to be effective it must be capable of being called on immediately at all levels, and it must be one enforceable on ANY Government. What is needed here is a recognition that Australian Government is itself defective in its present form if only through its origins in European Colonialism and Imperialism. But it is better to have a Bill of rRghts firmly in place before tampering with the existing Constitution(s) both Federal and State

A Bill of Rights is essential to the development of a secular Australian identity, under which religious and political freedom can exist and be protected. In these times when Islamic migrant populations in other countries demand the introduction of Islamic Law in their new countries - such has happened in France, Holland, and the United Kingdom and elsewhere - we need to make it clear that that is not about to happen here.

Ecclesiastical Law belongs to our past not our future. A Bill of Rights would make this point clear too! It is in everyone's interest that we have one.

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jenny08

Posted by jenny08 12/11/2008

Thanks Get Up for continuing to respond to issues of importance to Australians. On the Human Rights Act though you could emphasise another point - the human right to access to a healthy environment. Several nations have included within their constitutions the right for their people to have access to the basics of a healthy environment - clean water, clean air and clean food. As Australia's constitution currently does not include such a right it would be appropriate for the Human Rights Act to include it. As rights also create responsibilities, the addition of a right to a healthy environment would also create liabilities for environmental harm which would hopefully work to strengthen our environmental laws.
Keep up the good work!

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enufisenuf

Posted by enufisenuf 12/11/2008

To (almost) Quote JACK. I AGREE with this comment

This seems to be a sly grab for more power not less by the ALP.
Passing the power off to judges appointed by them is not an answer.
Political matters should be left in parliament where our representitives are elected to debate them. Sometimes, in a very haphazard way, but nonetheless, they represent an electorate.
There is no chance of that, given the very narrow view of judges, in a court. WOULD YOU TRUST A JUDGE???

WHy not let taxi drivers or cafe owners, or stockmen decide on the rights and wrongs of things? They have as much life experience as any collection of judges, regarding rights.

All the ALP is doing is building yet another bureaucracy to stifle our rights under common law.

And you know from experience, that they will clog the system for years in advance with facetious cases to keep themselves suckling on the public tit.

The effect wil be that you will have no rights until your case is heard, in some cases maybe a decade away from the event.

Who has the luxury grind an axe for that long, except a public servant filling in time before his super comes up.

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Anonymous Coward

Posted by Anonymous Coward 12/11/2008

Current Justices [from wikipedia]

Name-State-Date appointed-Mandatory retirement-Prime Minister at time of appointment-Previous judicial posting

Chief Justice Robert French-WA-1 September 2008 19 March 2017-Rudd (ALP)-Federal Court of Australia
Justice William Gummow-NSW-21 April 1995-9 October 2012 Keating (ALP)-Federal Court of Australia
Justice Michael Kirby-NSW-6 February 1996-18 March 2009 Keating (ALP)-Supreme Court of New South Wales
Justice Kenneth Hayne-Vic-22 September 1997-5 June 2015 Howard (Liberal)-Supreme Court of Victoria
Justice John Dyson Heydon-NSW-1 February 2003-1 March 2013-Howard (Liberal)-Supreme Court of New South Wales
Justice Susan Crennan-Vic-1 November 2005-2015-Howard (Liberal) Federal Court of Australia
Justice Susan Kiefel-Qld-4 September 2007-17 January 2024-Howard (Liberal)-Federal Court of Australia

"Passing the power off to judges appointed by them is not an answer."

Not really seeing as the only judge that will be forced to retire for certain in Rudd's term will be an ALP one.

Even with all these Howard appointed judges as a blight until 2024, id say that its jumping the gun to say that we should throw it all away. Im not of the legal profession and therefore don't know what i'm talking about but if it is/seems in a way something to secure the rights of the public then one would assume it would have to go through the public?

Anyway, it just seems too soon to blow it off simply because of the perceived ability of lack of quality of our judges, or for that matter the fact that the greens don't have one judge, while the Liberal party has 4, even though many of the policies of the Prime minister that appointed them are being dismantled, or recycled.

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Christine

Posted by Christine 12/11/2008

What defines us as civilised?

Perhaps the answer is this: to constitute a civilised society, we are bound ... through lawful provision ... to give and receive respect, dignity and compassion.

To show understanding for the plight of others and to respond adequately, appropriately, and with the same amount of concern as for our own loved ones, is requisite of any truly civilised society.

Nothing less is acceptable.

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honest john

Posted by honest john 12/13/2008

to Christine "What defines us as civilised?" simple answer is when some societies decided to end hunter-gathering by storing food . when there was excess food they sold it. that defines the turning point of hunter-gathering to civilisation because were they no longer nomads and could stay in the same place and built permanent shelter 10,000 years ago in central Turkey near Konya.

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honest john

Posted by honest john 12/11/2008

i note that phildeerhound has gone silent on my cooment that this blog has been hijacked by members of the British National Party

http://bnp.org.uk/

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Annymous Australian Citizen

Posted by Annymous Australian Citizen 12/11/2008

really?

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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 12/11/2008

According to my computer Honest John, you haven't made the comment you refer to so do tell

For the record my family have been throwing rotten fruit at the BNP and its predecessors in the Blackshirt movement since the days when Oswald Moseley and his Fascist weirdos used to come and speak at Chapel Market in London - which was just up the road from where they lived.

So that is about seventy five years in all

Good enough credentials for you?

Your supposed accusation would appear to be nonsense,

No passeran!

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honest john

Posted by honest john 12/12/2008

i though id hit a nerve
they must have been channelling your sub-concience

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roscelin

Posted by roscelin 12/12/2008

One needs to remember that:
- democracy is the best of the worst forms of government (indeed it is of course a form of tyranny; the tyranny of the Lowest Common Denominator).
- the concept 'human rights' is a floating abstraction; it isn't possible to philosophically (and therefore politically) define this concept (in the political sphere, 'individual rights' - that is, rights for the smallest divisible unit in a political sphere - can be the only persuasive argument for rights).
- thw concept 'human rights' is merely a bastardization of the concept individual rights and is an extension of point 1 (that is, the theory that the majority takes precedence over the few).
- Westminster system of government can't stand the idea of individual rights being adopted for if they were to be, suddnely all their power would vanish in a puff of smoke (not to mention their exhorbitant salaries, superannuation, etc, etc).
- the people seem to prefer the 'devil they know', the over-taxing, inscrutable, and oppressive regimes that the Westminster systems (that is, the hangovers of the British Empire) promote than to change to one that empowers the individual, and by virtue of that, forcing the responsibility for the individual's own life upon him.

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Unable to spell Anonymous now

Posted by Unable to spell Anonymous now 12/12/2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

Kinda
funny hey?

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Annymous Coward or something

Posted by Annymous Coward or something 12/12/2008

"forcing the responsibility for the individual's own life upon him"

I may be getting this totally mixed up and would love for clarification on this but, AFAIK The American Bill of Rights, is NOT, what makes the majority of Americans crazy ass neo-conservatives, or libertarian in nature, and therefore Australians having a bill of rights would not remove our welfare system [if anything id hope that we can strengthen it] nor would it remove the Westminster System [Yes an obviously British based system] and replace it with something as pathetically faulty and flawed as , say, the American system, nor in my opinion should it, or should it even be the preferable outcome, it would seem strange having a reasonable system, but to add into our current system, the inalienable rights that we associate with human rights [or the Rights of the Individual]. As far as individual rights being simply an extension i'm going to make the assumption that your saying that its actually the counterbalance to the concept of the Tyranny of the Majority, being that it is the individuals DEFENSE against the majority, being that your unlikely to be fighting 'Free Speech' or 'Equality' if you are the majority in a democratic society.

"- Westminster system of government can't stand the idea of individual rights being adopted for if they were to be, suddnely all their power would vanish in a puff of smoke (not to mention their exhorbitant salaries, superannuation, etc, etc)."

Please remember, After 2 Puffs PASS! this is what happens when you inhale to much without sharing, you suddenly find your mind in a parallel dimension where reality is so joyfully passed up for simple lies.

Typically we have held back against the concept of a Bill of Rights, because its arguable that we don't need one, because the majority of what would be covered by a bill of rights, is to one degree or another covered in common law [a typical feature of the Westminster system that I believe the Americans liked as well, correct me if i'm wrong please because my knowledge on common law is small] at least in regards to free speech.

My personal argument in this is that it should be obvious that the idea that we are in the good old days when we can trust our governments to do whats right by us as individuals is over and as such its time to make some of these things protected. Things like privacy and free speech, because hell, who knows when your going to be called a terrorist for speaking your mind these days and then imprisoned without the assumption of innocence and all the rest.

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blondie

Posted by blondie 12/12/2008

I'm all for a Human Rights Act for Australia, however how does the much touted American Human Rights Bill protect the vunerable there. From where I'm standing vunerable Americans suffer much in areas such as good health services etc. I would very much welcome your thoughts.

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Anonymous Guy Above

Posted by Anonymous Guy Above 12/12/2008

The American government and, in general, the average American, is somewhat against the concept of the "nanny" state, strong social security, unemployed benefits and all the other social securities that we enjoy [to one degree or another] and in general agree to be essential parts of in Australia, as Australians [that Americans DO NOT EQUAL Australians, both in their beliefs in regards to government, as well as their opinion of what they owe each other as fellow citizens], now this is not saying that the American system is wrong bad for the general people, but its simply different, and that needs to be factored into any comparison between an Australian Bill of Rights and the American Bill of Rights.

Long and the short though the bill of rights does typically protect what it set out to protect, free speech, the ability to be armed without major interference from the law, the freedom to associate and protest peacefully, not to mention the rest of them.

It doesn't say to my knowlage "We need to be nice people, and give money [our taxes] to the people who can't be bothered working themselves"

So it kinda boils down to this, A bill of rights grants to Citizens [to sometimes to all people in general] certain rights, which are protected from the government, which are meant to ensure that the government cant abuse your rights.

"From where I'm standing vulnerable Americans suffer much in areas such as good health services etc. I would very much welcome your thoughts."

To a degree your right, i'm sure that its fair to say that the wealthy in America [or at least those who can afford it] get as we do anywhere from great to awful medical treatment, your right in saying though that anyone who cant afford it probably gets the raw end of the stick, which is at least one of the reasons that we need to get involved in this process to make sure that the right things are protected or assured, quality education and health care services, provided to the people, hell I think at least considering Sydney and NSW transportation and competent government would be a nice thing as well, but a competent premier in NSW is probably a little to much to ask for.

If you put any human rights bill on top of a system which is somewhat focused on the ideology of the free market, and small government then there are obviously going to be big differences in the eventual outcomes compared to a system that promotes big government to one degree or another and has nothing against rather moderate socialist concepts like strong Public health, education,utilities and transport.

Now i'm no scholar in regards to US society, but even if you put the same bill of rights on top of Australia, you would not be able to hold them up next to each other and say they have the same opinions of people and what responsibility that the government owes towards its citizens.

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donny

Posted by donny 1/28/2009

What ever happened to the Constitional Rights of the Victims Relatives ??? An INQUEST into what REALLY happened ?? Or was it just another Polical Psych op ???

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honest john

Posted by honest john 12/12/2008

what happened to martin bryant ??
anyone interested should request a copy of "DEADLY DECEPTION AT PORT ARTHUR" ISBN 0-646-38174-1 from your loacal library

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Mary of Bunbury WA

Posted by Mary of Bunbury WA 6/11/2009

The most serious 'travesty' of justice I have know in many a long year. No way, no how did this young man do any of what is 'claimed' he did! But who the heck cares or is doing anything about it? The 'idea' of the case was to 'buy back guns' and well it succeeded and Bryant is doing 35 life terms for the privilege! There is one only copy of Deadly Deception At Port Arthur in WA libraries and that must be read 'in situ'! Would love to get hold of a copy in Large Print or Spoken form, but have had no luck to date. If anyone needs help it's Bryant!!

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Anonymous guy from sydney

Posted by Anonymous guy from sydney 12/13/2008

He is currently serving 35 life sentences in Hobart's Risdon Prison.

I'm not exactly certain here 'honest' john which angle your going with the conspiracy theory? Are you saying That Bills of rights are bad because the government was able to take a large amount of automatic weapons off the streets? Or are you trying to say that "the right to bare arms in self defense", if there even were such a right to be introduced into an Australian version would automatically mean we would be able to walk down to the local K-mart and pick up a nice shiny new AK-47?

Or are you saying we need to be prepared for the dropbears...?

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honest john

Posted by honest john 12/13/2008

to Anonymous guy from sydney
what im saying is if you read this book it questions what the spin doctors can get away with . MB was an interlectually disabled person and all his basic legal rights were denied

he was locked up and the key was thrown away . SBS tried to do a doco but it was knocked on the head
if he is innocent god help all of us

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Mary of Bunbury WA

Posted by Mary of Bunbury WA 6/11/2009

And this would NEVER have happened to a 'normal' person. Bryant was 'easy pickings' and the classic 'patsy'! He IS innocent so yes God help ALL of us!!??

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anonymous guy from sydney

Posted by anonymous guy from sydney 12/15/2008

Would this not suggest that we should at least try to get some protected rights within the constitution?


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tim

Posted by tim 12/13/2008

While we clearly need to work to protect freedoms such as freedom of association, freedom from discrimiation, freedom of expression, rights to acess information and communication in ones own language, a single act or any act may not be the best way to do this. In a true democracy it is a matter of everyones social responsiblity to protect such rights. The removal of the anti-discrimination act is a case in point why Acts are limited in there effectiveness at keeping a democratic government accountable. Acts are just one way the public can ensine their values by supporting acts that are consistent with our values. But to suff all these valued but debatable and complexly balanced rights into one act is dangerous,because a huge degree of debate is required to find the rights *everyone* can agree on. Every ideologist and actists group in the country will be trying to have their pet rights included and any group that suceeds could greatly upset moral balances that are already in place or being debated in society. No utopian can be created through such an over arching act. A peaceful and justice society is found thorugh creating social unity that is founded on an appreciation of the other and health debate with each other. This cannot be achieve through legislation especially at this time when government tends to rush things through without adequate engagement with the community.



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Anonymous Mourner

Posted by Anonymous Mourner 12/13/2008

"The removal of the anti-discrimination act"

This rings a bell for some reason, but could you please expand which where and when also by whom?

"a huge degree of debate is required to find the rights *everyone* can agree on."

This would I would think be a somewhat simply solved issue, The Bill can be designed as a container, which would stipulate the way the the individual rights interact, with things such as "Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein." [from the universal declaration of human rights]and other things that have been said above ] and things like this [pointed out above] "The Right to demand legislation be enforced promptly should be one of the Rights included within any Australian Bill.".

Beyond this point you throw the floor open, have a nomination process on a certain amount of them, spend a chunk of change educating the community about what each one could possibly give us, make it very public very transparent and then throw it up to something similar to a referendum, with each issue being voted seperatly, not simply, "do you agree with this block of stuff" etcetc

in other words we don't let ourselves get trapped like we did with the republic situation, but thats a different discussion for a different day.

"why Acts are limited in there effectiveness at keeping a democratic government accountable"

The most obvious solution [coming from someone with no legal/judicial/political process/constitution knowledge] would be to make them within the framework of the constitution in a similar [though not the same obviously] way that they are in America, which would mean that to change any of the actual rights you would need to hold a referendum, and they are pretty hard to get through typically [i'm not going to get into the argument about if the way that referendum are resolved needs to be changed or not different topic different time.

"Acts are just one way the public can enshrine their values by supporting acts that are consistent with our values"

Very true very true. Still to simply cut off our nose to spite our face would really not be all that productive.


"Every ideologist and actists group in the country will be trying to have their pet rights included and any group that suceeds could greatly upset moral balances that are already in place or being debated in society"

To the first part I say good, because if the environmentalists cant convince me that its true then I see no reason to need to convince myself if I don't already care, I though this was we were doing? Am I wrong in assuming that GetUp! is not a vaguely ideologically based activist group? The second part I cant agree on, seeing that i'm going to make the assumption there will be a voting by the public on this, and if the public has been convinced sufficiently to vote something in, with maybe more even than a simply majority being that these things need to more than simply represent the strict meaning of majority [I would assume closer to 75%], then it would simply be the will of a far vaster majority than was needed to say vote bush in an go to war in America, I think in a situation like that it would be hard to say that it wasn't representative of the publics feelings.

If possible I would like to hear a realistic example of such a group unbalancing the countries moral balances, and the RIAA doesn't count, they will morally corrupt no matter what.


"A peaceful and justice society is found thorugh creating social unity that is founded on an appreciation of the other and health debate with each other. This cannot be achieve through legislation especially at this time when government tends to rush things through without adequate engagement with the community."

The fact we have a government not a communal sit down or a quaker style governance in this country suggests to me that Australia, and its citizens support the use of legislation to enforce the will of the majority that are currently holding power, now Utopia is a nice dream, but we are still a whiles away from being able to solve all our problems simply with discourse, and trusting in the government to follow an ephemeral moral code, over the problems of the day [or at least the 'political" problems of the day, and saying that good politics and good governance are synonymous would be a very large lie imo] I think is a bit risky.

"at this time when government tends to rush things through without adequate engagement with the community."

This if anything should tell you that we need to take unto ourselves these rights to protect them from the depredations of our pernicious and oft' buffalo like keepers. If anything else you would hope that big fat Bard wire [and dont doubt that the first pm to take it to the people to remove or ameliorate free speech or some such will get a mighty shalacking from the people even if they get away with it] fences saying "Free Speech" or "privacy" would maybe curtail if nothing else the governments desire to romp in our pleasant green pastures know simply as "The Net" [or the land that Al Gore didn't build]

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tim

Posted by tim 12/13/2008

A human rights act could hurt ordinary people.

In particular rights such as right to education, right to adequate living standards, right to health are not really rights at all. While people should have the right to equal acess to education bases on the underlying value that all people are equal, if we demand a right to education we are essentially demanding government for provision of service. Such rights can essentially be turned against the very people they are meant to protect. This is happening right now in NT indigenous communities were the right to literacty education is being used to force an unresearched educational approach to teaching english that undermines the people ability to choose how their children are educated and their right to speak and be spoken to in their own language. Another example in the right to adequate living standards, while on the outset this looks good. The simple fact is that maintaining adequate living standards is in a large part a personal responsibility. An other example from remote indingeous communities, the demand for adequate living standards have created a dependency on government provision of health care, housing and even personal income. The welfare state has been largely build on providing financial and infrustructure support to improve so called 'living standards' without engaging a a grass roots level to provide human knowledge and capacity to determine their own living standards. People should also have the freedom to choose the time of living standard they what an not have a government or court do so for them.

Even some of the more traditional rights become dangerous if given too generally. For example the rights of the child to be protected from maltreatment is obvious and all around Australia we have acts that protect children from this. However, legislating federally for such rights may further shift the responsibily to protect the child further from the parent to the government. We are now seeing the arguement for this right being used by extreme protectionist groups to remove parents rights to disapline the child. Most parents in Australia have very few powers to protect train and disapline their child yet the states have increasingly made the parents acountable for the childs actions. There must be a balance here between child rights and the rights of the parent the parent to disapline, train and make choices for their children. The danger of a human rights act is that the rights of the children might be enshrined and use to the neglect of parental rights appropriate for the responsiblity that parents have. Around Australia we already have acts to deal with these complexities a Human rights act might balance such act if strong parental rights are included but the might also overshadow such acts and take them out of balance.



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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 12/13/2008

Tim writes:

"...rights such as right to education, right to adequate living standards, right to health are not really rights at all. While people should have the right to equal acess to education bases on the underlying value that all people are equal, if we demand a right to education we are essentially demanding government for provision of service"

Indeed we are and should. Government under what is technically referred to (rather than politically) as bourgeois market capitalism has made the error of being about "RULING" people. In this it has taken most of its inspiration from Machievelli, adapting only the makeup of the class viewed as being that which has the "Right to Rule" - We see this even in the behaviour of Australia's Opposition, which behaves more as a "Government in Exile" than as a genuine Opposition with alternative policies and philosophical concept on how our society should function.

Government in a world where the human race now reaches for peaceful sustainability rather than the imposition of serfdom, oppression and the pursuit of Empire, with their accompanying "Genocides" and "Ethnic Cleansings" SHOULD be focused on mutually CARING FOR rather than RULING and BULLYING

As such I believe we should enshrine those principles that we in our society choose to hold to be regarded as self-evident- and rather than in Thomas Paine it is perhaps in Jefferson that we should be seeking inspiration

Jefferson's words -"We hold these truths to be self-evident" contains the key to drafting a Bill of Rights. His choice of words was brilliant. There was no claim that what was being upheld In the Declaration of Independence was absolute truth, or that it was even necessarily "blindingly obvious". What it expressed was a choice made by the signatories in relation to what they believed should be possible in any society to take for granted - "Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and the belief that all people were brought into this world in a condition of created equality and shared the right to institute and reform Government

This magnificent document is now over two hundred years old, and yet it has lost none of its potency. A modern Declaration would require further provisions, and it is my belief that the right to education and the right to accommodation, access to food and water and to the best available health care should be included in the rights that OUR society "hold to be self evident" and to fall within any governments "duty of care" to its citizens

In conclusion I believe that at this stage the debate is more important than the achieving of an early result. Australia is a country still reaching for its identity, the same process took the American colonies some two hundred years too, so we are perhaps at the stage of political maturity Jefferson identified when he put pen to paper and gave the world his greatest gift in the following beautiful words, the concept that in my opinion should underly all attempts to frame a Bill of Rights. Why reinvent the wheel when the process is already known. A Bill of Rights is not so much a statement of principle as the enactment of them. it is that preliminary statement of principle that we currently most need. It could become the prologue to our present constitution and be preserved in the formulation of a new one and accompanying Bill of rights.

Jefferson wrote

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security"

I'd like to see us fulfil the words that appear on the coat of arms of my home state of NSW "Orta recens quam pura nites" - as they translated it for me in Premier's Wing many years ago - "Recently risen - how brightly we shine"

Declaration of Principle, Bill of Rights, new Constitution?

Let's do it - our beacon to a suffering world

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Anonymous guy from sydney

Posted by Anonymous guy from sydney 12/15/2008

"Why reinvent the wheel when the process is already known."

As long as what we end up with is an Australian Bill of Rights, not a Mini-Oz(TM) American bill of rights.

If such a thing should be done then it should be done so that it takes into consideration the flaws within the American one, and also bases it on many other similar ones, if we only turn to the US one for inspiration, to me at least, it would seem odd.

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Nige

Posted by Nige 12/18/2008

Human rights yes this should be enshrined in our constitution but not a bill of rights, which can be manipulated by those outside of a judicial system for personal or nefarious reasons.
Such a charter was introduced in the UK and it has become a home for the criminals and those with dubious agendas.

Yes we must have civil rights we must have our freedom of speech our freedom of the media our freedom of expression and it should be protected and guarded as dearly as life itself but lets not allow it to be hijacked by a minority who have no idea. We must have a process, which has checks, and balances or it will fall in to a smouldering heap useless, toothless, and immobile.

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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 12/18/2008

Nige writes;

Such a charter was introduced in the UK and it has become a home for the criminals and those with dubious agendas.

I was born there

it was always like that - that's why so many paid their five quid and left. The most dubious agendas were monarchy, the class system, and the Empire.

The Windsors are the kind of family you move whole hemispheres to get away from - them and their upper class sycophants.

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Nige

Posted by Nige 12/18/2008

Likewise Phildeerhound but for me the final straw was Thatcher.
The human rights charter in the UK has become an absolute joke hence why we must not make the same mistakes here.

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Nige

Posted by Nige 12/18/2008

You know when I last read the American constitution the bit about the right to bear arms was there for the individual states to form a militia to protect itself from aggressors so in turn the civilian population could in effect be armed for such circumstances. Hence the comment to bear arms. So putting the blue Singlet aside the banter between yourself and Lyle has at least been of some interest.

One point all of us should remember is this quote by Voltaire:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Much as I don’t like listening to the Klan, racists, the right wing religious nutters or other minorities with an axe to grind they all have my tacit support when it comes to free speech. Some may not be able to articulate themselves in a manner which may be pleasing to all so a tirade of profanity will ensue some days that may encompass racist, discriminatory, abusive language but we have to take it on the chin & put up with it. Not everyone has the same level of education or ability to articulate themselves

As for women’s genitalia what about the primeval act of circumcision? It's just as bad yet it's accepted so hey lets ban that as well for good measure. It's barbaric a backward practice so who will join me in declaring it illegal. Where is the law on this one? Oh it must be sitting in the corner with the women’s genitalia which has just been hacked off with an old razor blade.

Now as for human rights to be put in to law by untrained people judges? well that will become a bolt hole for the nefarious unjust self interest mouth pieces of society like a rat up a drain pipe.
We will end up like the UK where the crims will truly have sway over the populace so if you do catch a crim in your house make sure you kill them, cut them up in to small pieces and feed them to the sharks or you will end up in jail with the rest of society. Or will the distinction of jail blur once again to the same standard of Port Jackson in 1790.

As for religion well it ceased to be of any relevance on the 24th of November 1859 when Darwin published the origin of species.

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dan

Posted by dan 12/29/2008

reading these i cant see where any human rights have been neglected as where government departments and buearocrats are neglecting to perform their duty properly.Another level of government to oversee duties that should be administered will just clog courts and weigh down the system even more with the result usually being the victim waits even longer.
and not to mention the extra cost. maybe a system where the public servants and governments do the job they are paid to do with efficiency.

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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 12/31/2008

NSW residents might like to take a close look at this. It is an example of the kind of Governmental excess that a Bill of Rights should address

It is arguable that what is occurring could reasonably be described as “denial of natural justice” - an action in this case being carried out by the State Government, and therefore under the judgement and supervision of the perpetrators themselves. The criminal and the Court, and the supposed guardians of our security and interests – our homes in fact, are ONE and the SAME in this case. There are NO proper checks and balances

I refer to the new planning legislation that comes into force at the end of February. This time bomb was left quietly ticking away by Frank Sartor when he was removed from his post by the incoming Premier - this minister’s pending legislation was not withdrawn. It is a recipe for open slather on the part of developers – avoiding public scrutiny, community consultation and even legitimate neighbourhood objection. Currently it covers domestic development but it is easily extendable to larger developments

Basically the certification system for plans is to be handed over to “private certifiers” – (this to include such certifiers even owned by Councils). The private certifier “certifies” the plans and then they are deemed passed within a ten day period. There is no obligation even to properly notify neighbours, no right to properly scrutinise the certifiers decisions, no proper system of appeal except an expensive action in the Land and Environment Court (supposing that somehow you have been made aware of the development concerned)

Worse still we have to rely on Council Compliance units actually recognising and protecting areas that are not applicable to Sartor’s draconian legislation. These areas include those deemed “environmentally sensitive areas” (sometimes classified “Zone One on planning instruments) and bushfire prone areas such as those on the boundaries of national parks and scrubland

It is pretty obvious that the legislation opens up a whole new area for corruption and graft. We face the likelihood of money changing hands to avoid local government scrutiny and to certify non complying plans.

This time bomb is ticking away – It is no exaggeration to say that we stand to lose heritage items and environmentally sensitive areas galore in NSW if this legislation is allowed to continue in its present form with NO anti corruption checks and balances at all in place. You can just hear what they will say when a shonky one goes through (maybe next door to you) – It will be “Oh what a pity we didn’t know about this earlier. We really will have to be more careful next time” – and up the building will go and the bribe will be pocketed

The rape of NSW through this legislation is on the cards – and no doubt it will head to all the states later

A Bill of Rights is needed to protect our “Common Law Rights” . Sartor’s ten day “ring up your mate whose a certifier” legislation is an infringement of the right to proper access to information affecting your lives and your environment

It blocks your right to protest, to have an assessment checked, and to protect your community. It violates every principle of the right natural justice- which is all we have when there is no independently operated Bill of Rights

Sartor haunts the NSW corridors of power so long as this legislation remains on the books.

The claim of the breaking of the “hand in each others pockets” nature of the relationship of the NSW ALP to developers financing individual candidates and the party itself to serve their selfish interests will remain a lie

To those who say “We don’t need a Bill of Rights” to protect our Common Law Rights, our right to Natural Justice, I would say. Think again.

And if you are in NSW in what you believe to be a "protected" environmentally sensitive zone I would say think again until you have that guaranteed in writing by your local councillors, your mayor and your local government compliance unit.

Oh and don’t forget your local State MP.

It is one thing to try to make proper assessment be speedily carried out

Quite another to virtually abolish it to squeeze more dough out of your patrons

Oh and by the way there is supposed to be an inquiry into aspects of planning legislation in NSW

Funny they forgot to tell us isn’t it?

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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 1/4/2009

More about the background to development in NSW and the role of the now removed minister - Frank Sartor - who is the inspiration behind the new legislation that overrides full scrutiny of planned domestic developments and which still comes into force in February despite his removal from the office of minister

This legislation and consequent rogue development may be coming to a block next to you soon - without you being properly notified or having the normal right to natural justice and common law right to object - even if it takes away amenity such as light!

The background Sydney Morning Herald 5 May 2008:

"Greens take allegations to ICAC

Debra Jopson and Edmund Tadros
May 5, 2008

Advertisement
THIRTEEN development com-panies that have succeeded in getting the State Government to take over and approve $3 billion worth of their projects in three years have, between them, donated millions of dollars to Labor in that time, NSW Greens research has found.

On the other hand, the Minister for Planning, Frank Sartor, rejected 28 projects submitted for approval under part 3a of the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act by development companies that made no political donations, the Greens say in a dossier they plan to give to the state's corruption watchdog today.

On behalf of the Greens, the MP Sylvia Hale is calling on the Independent Commission Against Corruption to investigate donations from property developers to political parties and candidates, alleging that it "represents a systemic corruption of the planning system in NSW".

The Greens will cite 12 "heads of evidence", including their analysis of outcomes of development applications that Mr Sartor has designated major projects, making himself the consent authority. The Greens say their research shows political donors receive favourable treatment over non-donors.

There is also evidence that on many occasions, companies whose development applications Mr Sartor was considering had made "numerous large donations" to the NSW ALP while he was considering their application, Ms Hale says in her letter to ICAC.

A spokeswoman for Mr Sartor said: "This wouldn't be the first time the Greens have made false claims, and probably won't be the last." The dossier shows time lines for nine companies' donations to Labor that were made before their projects were designated for part 3a approval and while they were undergoing the approval process.

They include Payce Consolidated, a staunch Liberal donor for five years, which made its first Labor donation in June 2006, one month before it sought a part 3a approval for its $251 million Homebush Bay residential development. It donated $105,000 to state Labor between applying and obtaining approval.

One month after Buildev Tinonee applied for part 3a approval for its Bucketts Way rural residential development in December 2005, four Buildev companies began regular donations to the NSW ALP totalling $9164 monthly, which continued at least until April last year.

Multiplex donated $33,000 two months after the State Government called in its Civic Plaza development for Sydney Water Corporation, while Meriton Apartments donated $50,000 seven months before applying for major project status for its $45 million Rhodes development. In August 2006, it donated another $100,000 to Labor, with another $5000 in March last year, three months before winning approval.

Rosecorp Pty Ltd donated $143,600 while seeking State Government approval for its projects at Breakfast Point in Sydney and Catherine Hill Bay south of Newcastle.

Mr Sartor's spokeswoman said development proposals for Catherine Hill Bay had been subjected to one of the state's most transparent and publicly accessible planning processes.

The planning minister became the consent authority for Rhodes peninsula developments before Mr Sartor became minister, she said, and a number of his decisions had been appealed by dissatisfied developers.

Ms Hale conceded in her letter that ICAC had already declined to investigate some of the matters on the grounds that there was a legal regime for the receipt of political donations and that the planning minister was not required to declare political donations when making part 3a approvals. The commission had previously considered potential corruption risks arising from the exercise of ministerial discretion for these approvals.

But she was raising new matters and ICAC's recommendations when it examined corruption risks in the process had not been implemented, she said.

Mr Sartor's spokeswoman said: "Proposals are determined strictly on their merits, following advice from the Department of Planning, which is an independent civil service …

"We have no idea how donors or non-donors to the party are treated because, as donations are not a relevant planning consideration, the minister is unaware of who does and doesn't donate to the party."

This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/05/04/1209839456328.html

End
Quote

This legislation is a potential violation of natural justice, potentially unconstitutional, an invitation to difficult to track money laundering and a golden invitation to multiple independent acts of corruption by council compliance units deliberately not monitoring the legislations application and exemption from it of particular areas.

it should be thrown out now. Sartor has gone - now get rid of what reamains!


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honest john

Posted by honest john 1/4/2009

phil what about australian companies picking up lucritive construction contracts in the occupied territories in palistine?

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phildeerhound

Posted by phildeerhound 1/12/2009

Let's not talk nonsense HJ. Harrods of Knightsbridge is owned by an Egyptian. Mohamed Al Fayed is believed to be worth around $555million (US). Harrods was purchased as part of the House of Fraser for around $615 million in 1985 in partnership with his brother Ali.

"So what?" I hear you cry, HJ

Exactly. So what!

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DocSniper

Posted by DocSniper 2/5/2009

There is no human rights in Australia. its just a front. As the same is for Justice,there is None.

Have a peek to get a Better insight to the Truth of Australia.
http://www.dotblu.com/question/2.2.2009_this_is_the_b_tch_that_stole_my_children_and_mudered_love_and_braned_me

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Get With The Program

Posted by Get With The Program 2/5/2009

The United States has recently introduced the following:

1. military on US soil specially trained and dedicated to acting against Americans themselves (does China ring a bell? - 80,000 riots are quashed there each year)

2. wiretapping of Americans' personal mobile communications and internet usage

3. conscription of Defence personnel (Obama's policy), with a view to extending it to the public service and possibly the greater population

How is Australia protected from the same thing happening by our government? THINK about our kneejerk entry into a war based on LIES about Weapons of Mass Destruction. Don't think that we won't kneejerk again into following a US or British-led policy.

We need protection NOW against these possibilities and more. The method will take whatever form provides these protections. And it must be entrenched in the fundamental/founding laws and principles that make up this nation - unalterable by the government of the day.



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Sue Stanford

Posted by Sue Stanford 2/5/2009

Thank you for this information. I haven't read the Victorian Charter. I'm going to do it now!

I didn't realise that a person could be 'low priority' over 50! We need more health professionals and hospitals!

The other cases also quite shocking. Why isn't this all over the papers?



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molly

Posted by molly 2/6/2009

To those who say a Human Rights Act will empower the Courts and remove power from Parliament I have to point a couple of important points:

Firstly, Courts already have the power to make laws - these laws are known as common law - Mabo is a perfect example - the Parliament overturned the laws. This is an example (albeit an imperfect as it is) of how the Courts are able to make laws and how Parliament has the power to change laws - this will continue to be the case in democracy.

Secondly to those who say it has given Americans the right to bear arms - we are not proposing that we get gunned up. Far from it.

Finally, I think we should all be concerned with politicians who do not want to protect human rights - what is it that makes them think we don't all deserve rights protection? What is their agenda?

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Lampy

Posted by Lampy 2/16/2009

Frank Brennan, heading the panel on human rights in Australia, certainly knows that GetUp! is on the job.

http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,25060093-15306,00.html

"So
far about 10,000 submissions have been received, although Father Brennan said the majority had come via the activist group GetUp!"

Cheers
John

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lynne

Posted by lynne 3/12/2009

It seems to me, that in a hunderd different ways every day many people in our communities are treated in ways that we would consider, as a community, unaccepatble.Whether this be because they are ill, poor, homeless, Aboriginal, young, gay, old, or any of the other charcteristics that we as a society use to aportion disadvanatage and deny access to opportunity, we need better legal protections that provide us with access to systematic change. I would therefore support the introduction of a Bill of Rights as one postive step towards this.

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Ada

Posted by Ada 10/8/2009

Commend reading, in relation to aboriginal rights,
Centre for Applied Christian Ethics:
Brief CACE 47 "Australia: whose land? a Christian call for recompense" by Rev Dr Peter Adam, Principal, Ridley College, Melbourne

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Greg Payne

Posted by Greg Payne 10/8/2009

While I would like to see a "Bill of rights" I am very worried about this one. What will it say?
I am extremely concerned about specifics and anti discrimination stuff as enshrining the evil political correctness. What is wrong with the simple freedom of speech and freedom of association. I get the impression this will lead to hate speech BS legislation.
Even the comment at the bottom of this comment box is anti free speech. Who is to determine what is abusive, racist or expletive?
I will only vote when I know EXACTLY what I am voting for.
GP

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True Freedom of Thought

Posted by True Freedom of Thought 10/10/2009

What about the right of children not to be indoctrinated with their parents' religion, but being allowed to choose their own beliefs when old enough and choosing to do so? So many people never really get the right to choose their own religious belief because they are inculcated from birth. This is an abuse of a person's human rights and must be stopped.

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Rosemary

Posted by Rosemary 10/14/2009

Frank Brennan said in his address to the National Press Club that Australians did not know what our rights are and had no idea where to find them out. He said many people called for education on the subject.

I would like to suggest that different communities be given the chance to receive different kinds of education. For instance, Aboriginal artists could be invited to create paintings with attached meanings and dances that would carry the message of rights in a way that would mean something to them.

Interactive websites would mean a lot to the young e-generation and could be used by teachers in schools, especially if different sites were set up for different age groups. Teachers have long been talking about rights and responsibilities in classrooms so these websites could build on those ideas.

I think U-tube could also be used for short films that might illustrate examples about certain human rights. People can relate stories to their every day lives and can then start to see the human rights issues involved.

I think education about human rights should be seen as much more than just a static list of rights produced on a pamphlet or website. It should be presented in a varied and ongoing way that invites response from the community.

Rosemary Walters

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Duya Agria

Posted by Duya Agria 10/14/2009

I am very concerned that with the sudden escalation in attacks on human rights by the legislature - especially since 2001 ("because there have been serious attacks on people globally by non law abiding persons") - the people these laws purportedly are trying to protect, namely you and me, will have allowed to be ushered in a potential police state the likes of which horror novels of the past could only present as pure fiction. This madness needs to be balanced by some sanity. A proper human rights act which is supported in reality will contribute to this balance, don't you agree?

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